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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
73
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Posted - 2012.03.12 16:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
Fun Facts:
In the month of Feb:
~8.6T ISK in Incursion Payouts
~4.8T in Mission Rewards + Mission Bonuses ~32T in NPC bounty
So of the combined Incursion/Missions/Ratting/etc ISK faucet
~81% comes from non-Incursion activity |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
73
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 16:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Misanth wrote: Promote PvP
You can lead a horse to water..... |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
75
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 17:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Also, a large portion of the bounties already follow that rule GÇö the more people rat/explore/run anomalies, the fewer are available. So by that token, bounties aren't a problem eitherGǪ
This is only true if the the amount of ISK currently generated is = to the potential ISK of these resources. IE every belt had ratters, every anom had someone in it, and every explo site was being run as soon at it spawned. Given that there are way more belts/anoms/explo sites than incursion sites the potential global ISK injection from boutnies makes Incursions way less of an issue.
Regardless, missions do not follow the same laws given that there is an infinite supply of them.
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Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
75
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 18:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Regardless, missions do not follow the same laws given that there is an infinite supply of them. True, which is why they have classically been a source of worryGǪ GǪso when people are abandoning that infinite supply of ISK for something that's supposedly finite, that tells you something about what that finite activity can deliver, and why you should keep a very close eye on it.
You have your worry point all wrong.
Movement inside player action only denotes that (atm) thier personal wallets grow more doing incursions than doing other activities. Meaning that there is room for more efficiency in the harvesting of incusrion-based ISK. Since there is a hard cap on the amount of ISK that can be generated from Incursions, this trend logically continues until the ISK/hr each individual gains in thier wallet = the amount that could be gained from running missions/ratting/etc. Assuming, that is, that there are not intangible benefits also created by incursion running.
This does not alter the hard cap on the amount of ISK that can be generated from incursions. The same amount of ISK can be injected into the global economy if 1000 people run them or 1000000000000 people run them. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
75
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 18:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
For those discussing the insurance faucet:
~3.4T payed out ~1.6T payed in
So insurance injected about 1.8T in Feb. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
75
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 18:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tippia wrote: if people are abandoning an infinite ISK source to get to it, it is a cause for worry since it tells us that we're nowhere near that yet and it's already a significant contributor to the ISK supply.
Not necessarily.
You may have a situation where the minimum number of people needed to harvest 100% of the total possible ISK (perfect efficiency) gives a greater ISK/hr than missions/ratting/etc
So long as the ISK/hr is greater people will move to incursions. Meaning that the distribution of total possible ISK is spread across more players, and yet the total injection remains the same.
This is all theory, given that we do not know the distribution of incursion ISK across security. IF incursions are only being run in highsec....ever.... then there is significant room for more injection once people start running them in low/null. However, when an incursion pops up in your deep-blue 0.0 sov sys it would be silly not to farm it like crazy (little risk) so I can only assume that SOME of the feb numbers include 0.0 space. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
75
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 18:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Assuming, that is, that there are not intangible benefits also created by incursion running. And there is one. Your sec status goes up quite nicely when you pop Sansha BS. So one could very well keep running Incursions even if the wallet is about to explode already.
Fun is another. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
76
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tippia wrote: As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the systemGǪ
I did not see that one. Good catch!
Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Andski wrote: Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.
Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.
Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection.
Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE.
If people are worried about hyper-inflation caused by ISK faucets, which I think is pretty lolworthy....but it is my opinion, then knowing where the biggest faucet is necessary.
Hint: It is not currently Incursions |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Andski wrote: "Please leave my no-risk ISK fountain alone and nerf the already pathetic income from 0.0 bounties"
Actually this is one of the biggest reasons why I think having the breakdown of bounty by security would be really beneficial.
If you look at the amount of mission reward+bonus part of the faucet it does kind of imply that a fairly significant amount of the bounties each month come from missions (since reward+bounty is usually paltry in terms of overall mission ISK)... which numerically originate in highsec (or at least did a long time ago). |
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Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Eso Es wrote: Except if the payment for said job doesn't rise with the rising costs of things, your point is moot. When was the last time you got a "raise" in EVE.
Actually mission runners got a "raise" back in 2007-2008'ish. They decreased total number of rats, but increased bounty and composition of rats in missions. Meaning that you could run more missions/hr than you could before. Since that time CCP also boosted/added ships such that it was faster to kill the smaller number of rats found in a mission. Meaning that you could run even more missions/hr than before.
Assuming you dont shitfit and have good skills (sp and rl) obviously.
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Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Just curious, are there any numbers for what bounty isk facets were like pre-incursions for comparison? I'm curious to see how much isk influx from other activities decreased if any as a result of their introduction.
Stop being smart.
You will ruin everything |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Interestingly enough you could probably build a case that by making asault/hq sites better relative to vg's might result in an increase in total ISK being pumped into the game because population can go up while the number of contested sites goes down.
Should be interesting to see that devblog. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 23:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote: You do realize speculation on Drone bounties and a war themed expansion are causing people to stock up right?
Not to mention the season.
Endeavor Starfleet wrote: Except that wont be able to count the other factors that affect those fleets. It is not simple to factor VGs.
Oh i agree that there are many factors that might effect the decision of which sites to run. I am not saying that it will absolutely happen. All I am saying is that IF people move into the higher ranked sites, more people could "do incursions" before isk/hr rates became seriously degraded (where it is more profitable to run missions for example). Assuming that post-change vg are still better isk/hr than missions in the first place. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
78
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 23:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andski wrote: Yes only a supercarrier should be able to kill deadspace rats right?
Funny how making this the case would not change a large number of players ship choice in null.
And also why any argument that starts with: "highsec incursions are risk free!" is a joke. Highsecers field shiny machs. Many in nullsec field supercarriers and titans.
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Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
78
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 00:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tenebrae Syrennis wrote: [/Facepalm]
You still haven't learned, have you...
Those numbers that "someone" posted say that something on the order of 30% of all bounty income is Incursions.
facepalm indeed |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
78
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 00:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tenebrae Syrennis wrote: [/Facepalm]
You still haven't learned, have you...
Those numbers that "someone" posted say that something on the order of 30% of all bounty income is Incursions.
19% (8.6T of 45.4)
Nope. Incursions do not account for 19% of bounty income either.
You ready for the real answer?
Incursions account for 0% of bounty income. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
78
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 01:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xorv wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote: I'll leave the details to the devblog but I'd say there is a chance the changes might be (among other things) exactly what you wrote.
I certainly hope the "among other things" addresses the extreme risk vs reward imbalance that nullsec caused.
fyp |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
78
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 01:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: Turn Incursions off for two months, see what happens to the PLEX market. My prediction is that the PLEX market will die in the arse (that's a technical term meaning, "suffer a severe correction in price position"), and along with that you'll find a large number of unsubscriptions due to people leaving the game who were only playing to be part of space raiding guilds.
UNless there is another Unholy Rage, you and I both know that PLEX prices will have dropped noticably in a month, with further drop in price another 2months after that. So the challenge is kind of rigged.  |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
80
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 23:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
INteresting. So looking at the combined data on twosteps blog with the last ever QEN.
If you go to page 19 of that QEN you find a handy little month-to-month graph of Faucets and Sinks.
At the highest point (for the months indicated) the total amount of ISK being injected from NPC buy orders was ~7.5T.
Wormhole Blue Books alone accounted for ~10.4T in the month of Feb. according to Diagoras
That is about a 40% increase even before we take non-bluebook commodities into consideration. |
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Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
81
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 18:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
mackluver wrote:Not that this would be a problem if they fell in line with the risk=reward factor that everything in eve is supposed to have.
Risk vs. Reward means nothing.
1) If you inject 1 GAZILLION isk into an economy it does not matter how risky it was. Injection is injection.
2) Even if it did matter, people use caps and super caps to do PVE in what is supposedly the riskiest space in EVE. Last I checked a fully fit Super was way more expensive than a shiny mach used in Incursions. This implies that either the reward for PVE far outstrips the risk in the theoretically riskiest places, or the risk is significantly less than in highsec incursions. If the former is true, then any concerns you might have about isk faucets should be focused on the PVE rewards that allow Supers/Titans to be worth it. If the latter is true than complaints about risk vs. reward should be focused on making non-highsec more risky. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
82
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 18:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
mackluver wrote: And as I stated, caps/supers in 0.0 PVE should get you an instant pwn fest
Except that it doesnt. Which implies that reward>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>risk.
Quote: the way they do in w-space.
Except that they dont.
Quote:warp a solo carrier to a site in class five and watch the fireworks.
Warp a solo Mach into an Assault and watch the fireworks.
Quote: As far as injecting a gazillion isk into the economy... as long as it results in a gazilion isk in pvp ships dying, then all is well. Where as high-sec incursions suffer ship loss only from unwary pilots and unfortunate ganks. That isn't nearly enough to balance against the inflow.
Because none of those people do incursions to pay for pew pew amirite? I guess then that everyone who engages in missions/ratting/anom'ing/wormholing is also only doing it for the PVE and never to fuel pvp.
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Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
82
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 19:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Yes, but that limit is pretty high and we haven't reached it yet. That was part of my interest in what Soundwave said early on.
-Liang
If anything this is the biggest concern. HS incursions are probably at peak or close to (at least during peak timeframes), but there is a lot of room for growth in the LS and 0.0 incursions. Especially given the payout structure.
All of this is moot though if the bulk of the price increases (sans PLEX) is a supply issue. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
82
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 19:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
MacLuven wrote: I take it back. It's exactly like what goes on in academic economics.
Here in the US it is nearing the end of the spring term at university. At all the schools I have been to spring term is when all the first years take macroecon I.
During the fall term you find a lot of threads on these forums about opportunity cost and "free minerals".
It should not be surprising to see correlations to academic economics in these threads. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
83
|
Posted - 2012.03.17 17:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote: The same people crying today about inflation
are, many times, the same people crying about how about how everyone is too rich and losses do not mean anything in PVP. |

Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
83
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 19:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Skex and Barakkus have really important points to keep in mind in all of this. I would add two things:
1) Relative to population, the ISK injected into the economy is not linear. As more people pile into incursions the total ISK injection increases at a decreasing rate until the theoretical max is reached. The closer you get to that theoretical point, the ISK merely starts getting distributed over a larger group of characters. Conversely, as population decreases the ISK injection decreases at an increasing rate.
2) There are also mechanics in place that can further limit probable ISK injection. The ironic part is that the mechanic is dependent upon players, and, so far, players have generally preffered to build thier own sandcastles to ruining the sandcastles of others. It would be interesting to see if the efforts of some people in the community to end an incursion ASAP had a significant effect upon the total ISK generated from an entire incursion. |
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